Braz promos!!!

[Megadave]

Hi my Friends...

i decide to write this message after a long meditation...and especially after a long discussion with Vic and Norman...(still thx guys for your time,patience and answers)....

i was very in trouble if open a post...i'm in strange situation and my main problem is my relationship with others member...i don't want loose people that i find here...our discussion...and pleasure to talk about pjdiscography...especially when they have a great experience and can teach me everyday something about this world...


in these months i observed what's happened in forum and in the pjcoll about...braz promos..
Yesterday i ve received the 18tu-20th emails of this braz seller with a load of new braz promo acetate and advance copies...i know him very well...and i think he is always the same person....maybe i'm wrong...and it should be a great think 'cause it means that it's a my traditional big mistake.......
i think i'm the first who has bought an item from this seller...but from ebay....(in that case it was an official braz item)...

since this day...i've received every month and every week mails from this seller who try to sells me acetate and advance cd all from braz...
they are all identical.....1month ago...gorge set.....3month ago 3 avocado promos....during summer all promos from into the wild(4 or 5 items!!!)..
and all acetates we have into the archive...
naturally...always for impossible price.....
u know, i've bought fro him Hard sun....with a lot of doubts about this item..for $35...in the beginning he asked $350...
it has been possible cause a friend of mine has ordered from his store whole Metallica braz cdalbum sealed...i'll give him a new buyer and he gave him hard sun as a sort of gift............
(i want say another thing i've forgotten but can give an idea about this seller...Vic,Norman...this purchase of metallica's cd albut was possible cause he had checked my feedback and started to send me mails to sell metallica stuff....i must said him that these purchases were for a friend of mine...i'm not a met-collector.)
And i think he was became blind by selling's desire that he came in this forum with another load of pj braz promo...i still don't know how he came here....)
When i have seen his new items yesterday....i cant believe to my eyes...we started from Fatal and pass with Do the evolution,eldery, to Remixes 2004!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In past i always said to him..."oh thanx 4your mails and pics...but at moment i haven't a great money disponibility...and not very interested into these items...i've paid an important price for first item on ebay cause i'm looking for it disperately for long time...so i refuse your offer...put them on ebay,maybe u can have good chance to sell them..."..

but yesterday..due recent events i have sent him this mail (extracts..):
"how can it's possible u have 5promos for intw...4promos for avocado...for usa and eu we have max 2promos and they're most important countries...where are the inserts,cases,cardslevees???...always pressed in the same ways..always similar...
in 20 years of pj discogr. we have only 4promos single with case, insert and all the rest:
-jeremy
-nais
-light years
-thin air
we have only a Vitalogy promo ...and u come with all this stuff????????in 9 months i've counted now 19 different promo braz!!!!!!19????
i asked u months ago a copy of touring band with ten cd for a friend of mine...u never found it...so simple..it's a regular press...and everytime i ask u info for this dvd...u answer me with a new promo with or no answer about it...."
after 2min i 've received his answer...he says only:
"f**k u Dave!!"
the good thing is that he has given his traditional answer:"i'm in conact with sony braz"...i've listened everyday this kind of answer from various sellers.....
Problem is not if these items are fake or official... i have my personal opinion...i want only share this experience...we're free to have our opinions,decide how spend our money...but Noman and Vic have suggested me to tell this story...
i have consulted 3-4 other collector friends(not of pj but always in rock music)...i respect these guys and their experience in this world....they told me...."never seen acetate from southamerica...especially from brazil"..
i was waiting today,answers from 2 braz sellers...one is very famous on ebay(about 800feedback, 100% postive ,with 500south america promos sold...i've seen member of this forum buy fro him.)...i've bought from his store ten and vs gold stamp,nais and light promo,so a very good business relation with him....and he has written:
"dave,sincerely i should'nt talk about another braz seller but with my experience i can say 3things
-i have never seen a pj braz acetate
-i have never received a braz acetate in my store in 15years
-i don't believe that there are acetate braz
but it doesn't mean that they are fakes,i can't say it...just....Dave, be careful with your purchases!"

i haven't answered to his last mail..how can i say?he'll repeat 1000times:"i've my contact with sony braz!!!!"
an...i don't ask to Vic to delete items from pjcoll...in a big discography made by fans...it's a normal thing to have some fakes...it's a natural risk,it can happen.....no one can help us with work...there's no problem for me...and i'm not sure about their originality....i've only my personal opinion!!

this story has made me thinking about jeremy arg promo..do u remember???
i received this private mail with pics of this fantastic items.....i was so close to buy it immediately.......but i prefered posted pics on forum and ask your opinion....i wrote in my post..."guys...seller asking me a load of money....help me...."...in the end we were quite sure that it was a great...Fake item.......obviously,i never bought jeremy arg.....but maybe it was original,no one can say it....it was really well made...
i remebered that this last seller always repeat:"i've my contact with sony Arg!!!"...mmmhh, it sounds so familiar....

i'm really in trouble and i'm hating this situation.....hope u guys understand my intentions...
i still no have idea how can find a good solution WITHOUT HURT other members..
and again my big thanx to Vic and Norman for their time,help and especially their patience..


Take care
D.

[bu$hleaguer]

Wow Dave, thanks for posting this here. That was a lot to take in.

First off, don't feel bad about hurting other member's feelings. I think we are all intelligent collectors who respect each others opinions and want what is best for the PJ collecting community. These Brazilian promos are a fantastic example of why we need this forum and as much input as we can get. I'm still undecided about this whole mess and whether or not these are real. I've had some discussions with Simone, Paul and Norman and have been doing LOTS of research on the web regarding Brazilian Promos/Acetates, etc.

Here are a few points I would like to make.

1. All Brazilian pressings are hard to get. We all know this. I still don't have a complete collection of regular releases. Have you ever seen this item:



And I'm kicking myself for forgetting to bid on this one:




Vitalogy, No Code - very hard to find. With all the Brazilian sellers on eBay, the regular items are still very scarce. Has EIL ever carried a Brazilian item?



2. All CD-R promos involve a great risk of being fake. We have analyzed many of the US stickered promos and know that only certain disc brands are used with the various releases. "Never-before-seen" CD-R items are a complete gamble. As you mentioned, the Argentina Jeremy promo is a great example of this. We still don't know if it is real or not. I believe it is fake based on the logical timeline of release (before CD-R discs were used). We need to analyze these Brazilian promos to see if disc brands are consistent as well as other markings (font style, logos, etc.). I know that Simo has some Brazilian promo singles that are a different color CD-R than my copies (green vs blue on data side). Are they all like that? Do some have markings on the plastic ring and not others? I think we have lots of comparing to do before we can jump to any conclusions. Just because they are different doesn't mean they are fake. But we're not the only ones confused about CD-R / DVD-R promos. Check out this seller's feedback:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... llFeedback


3. Dave, regarding your statement:

"how can it's possible u have 5promos for intw...4promos for avocado...for usa and eu we have max 2promos and they're most important countries...where are the inserts,cases,cardslevees???...always pressed in the same ways..always similar..."

We have to view these releases from the perspective of the Record Label. Sony has a certain pattern when issuing promos as does Warner Bros/Rhino, etc.

I found a Shikira discography website that has some important clues as to whether these Brazilian acetate promos are "logical" from a Sony standpoint (she is on the Epic label). Check out this link. Let the entire page load and then start at the very bottom of the page and work your way up seeing the changes in the design of promos over the years that mirror PJ releases:

http://www.netti.fi/~oh1xs/shaki/single.html

Did you see the Brazilian Acetates! Maybe Amadeu is making fake Shakira promos too.


4. Regarding Amadeu's "F U" response, I think it can be taken two ways. One, he is greedily making these fakes and if you are not going to buy them he doesn't give a shit about you. Or... he IS really getting these from Sony/Warner/Rhino and doesn't like being called a lier. It is too early to tell. When he offers me these promos. He does tell me which ones he has duplicates of and I have learned to ALWAYS talk down his crazy prices. But for now I don't want to get into any specifics. These are still quite a gamble at this point.


5. I compared the tracks (radio edits) of the first Brazilian Gorge promo disc to the regular release and this is what I found:

1. I Believe In Miracles 4:51 (6:08)
2. Man Of The Hour 3:39 (5:23)
3. I Am Mine 3:40 (4:04)
4. Black 6:08 (7:08)

The track lengths in ( ) are the regular versions. These all have been individually edited and fade in and out. Now, anyone with audio editing software can do this but I really find it hard to believe that someone would go through all that trouble when they could have just copied each of the 7 discs exactly and had just as nice a promo. Do you get what I am saying?


Anyway, those are my thoughts for the moment. But we still have much to discuss...

[simopearl]

Here i am!!!

i'd like to say a couple of thinks:

1) Dave, don't worry about your opinion, it's just a point of view and everyone can agree with you or not, but it's very important!!!

2) i agree with Sam expecially with his point n.5.

3) i really don't know if these promos are official, but i decided to believe him and to buy some of them. everytime he asks a lot of money and every time i try to buy them for a lower price.
i think we should try to loose interest in these items so he is oblieged to sell them for a "common price";

4) now some thoughts that make me start doubting of the genuinity of these cds:

4.1) he has too many copies...
4.2) i recieved few days ago the gorge set and disc one had a big scratch.. i asked him to replace the cd and he was able to find another cd n.1 in a couple of days...
4.3) i asked him if it was possible to have some official sony/bmg/epic sheets attesting the officiality of the promos but he answered me: "These promos never came with an info sheet of any sort...
they are distributed to radios in a bundle with other promos and are
not very fancy at all, contrary to the earlier promos, which came with
covers and all. My friend gets the promos from a sales rep, so it's
nearly impossible to get an official sony/bmg sheet stating they are
official. But my source is great and I know for a fact that these are
official"...

5) finally the points that make me be faithfull about these promos:

5.1) you can look at the Sam point 5.
5.2) he is selling a lot of promos even of other artists.... and a few months ago he had sold even the thin air promo (100% official)....

Concluding: we can't be 100% sure about these promos... but i like to have them and i think we absolutely have to put and leave them of the site.
Surely next times he will offer me another promo i'll try to offer him a low price...

Thaank for having started the discussion Dave!!!

[Megadave]

thx 4your answer Sam...u're breaking my chains...2things..
hope u in future u can talk with Vic or Nor about my feeling in this situation...especially about my contact with u....personally they are free to copy my message and send to your mailbox so can read about it directly...
second thing...i never talk in my thread if these items are fake or not...obviously i've a strong personal opinion but never say something about it...i never say to Amadeu:"your items are unofficial..."...i've asked to him more info...cause i think it's a normal request if seller asking a great load of money....but i never receveid his answer.....
as my contact on ebay has said:"Dave,i'm not here to say unofficial or official just ...be careful with your money and purchases"

about your discussion's point:

1-braz cd are hard to find??it's fu**in true!!!i have only avocado and yield
no,i have never seen this boot with this sticker...it's very nice...u know...i like very much country sticker on cd(Do u remember LO2L korea??..still looking for it..)..
boot with promo stamp???yesssssss...i've seen it..same seller and sold in the same day of my above braz promo stamp(no one has bidded on above!!)....i haven't bidded on this boot 'cause i'm not a boot collector.
but i think u know Mercadolibre better than me...and if u search on it...u can find a lot of southamerican cds,specially from braz...recently i was taking a look and i'll find all braz ten cd(i still need my first ten braz copy..people are wrong...my collection is very very small,believe me )...a lot of copies are SEALED..same for VS.....
i have a discussion about it with neves71(i'm sure u know him) and he said that these sellers simply prefer sell their cds only in southamerica..
i think that we have some chance that in past we have Vsblu or Vital braz promo in mercadolibre for "human" price...

2-Shakira acetate??...she is colombian...obviously a lot stuff for south america, promo etc...
it's very simple find her stuff in these countries...cause southamerica is her..land...but i think i will be more specific in next points..
the most interesting thing is this seller feedback's page!!!!!WOW..it's impossible not notice it...
he sells always same items..all ACETATES...all Fakes...he choose 3-4 artists and start to sell few copies with fantastic prices..all acetates with super price...and he received negative feedback for this reason and he........NOT replies!!!!i must think he is happy about these feedback or more simply...........HE KNOWS that these cds are....
if u start this type of activities u DON'T MAKE AN ACETATE ONLY FOR MADONNA or U2 or PJ...but U TAKE 4-5 ARTISTS and GO.....Amadeu promo are all the same...i think IT WAS INSANE IF HE DOESN'T MAKE ACETATE FOR OTHER ARTIST...not so hard and impossible,trust me...there are things more,more difficult than make some acetates copies...but..again...i'll more clear in the next points

3-4 Amadeus 's answer is not a problem...it's normal...it's human...personally, he can made a bigpost in this site and writes:"megadave ia a professional liar and especially a professional di**head"...and u can be sure that i will not ask to Vic to remove the topic.....
as i said to Vic and Norm...problem in not fake or original...cause i cannot be sure....but his WHOLE ATTITUDE that sounds bad..
in one of last emails...i've said to Amadeu that i've noticed that last acetates on ebay have been closed with......no buyers...mmhhhh!!...
waiting for some weeks and return to me with gorge set...in the beginning he has one copy..after 2-3 days they become 2...til 5set!!!i said to him no,it's a fake...but: "wow it must be incredible rare!!!if u are sure...go on ebay...go, whole market is yours..tim007footy included...i'm sure u'll realize a super price..why a private form with me when u can have 10000potential buyers...are u sure about his originality??...world of pj collector is yours"!!!
5WEEKS ARE GONE...AND I'M STILL WAITING FOR GORGE ON EBAY!!!!!
but he continues still sell braz official promo on ebay (not acetate)..like i have shown to Paul....always naturally with super price with only buy it now and without best offer!!!!!!
and someone must explain me why for Jeremy and thin air he has gone directly on ebay!!!!
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THAT I CAN SEE BETWEEN AMADEU AND FIRST SELLER IS....Amadeu DOESN'T TAKE RISK....FIRST SELLER LIKES NEGATIVE FEEDBACK!!!!!!
oh,don't forget he sold Hard sun for $35...starting price was naturally $350!!!!WHYYYYYYYYYYY FROM $350 to $35?????????how can it's possible???????
i'm quite sure that if in future he'll have for example 3vitalogy promo(i know it's impossible)...he STARTED WITH $2000 AND PRICE STAY'LL $2000 for each copy...and i've very strong and big doubts that he can sell me for 200 or $20 like in the hard sun case......cause he knows his value!!!!!!!!!!!

5-SONGS PLAY PERFECTLY...WHY SPEND TIME,MONEY,MATERIAL, TO MAKE THESE CD?
this is definitively my prefered point of this discussion....this question can have only an answer:
made unofficial item to make money is an old story...today u have great technology,super pc, Nero burning,photoshop...cd with just a white paper sleeve....but in past it's not so easy...MORE DIFFICULT THAN PRINT A SHAKIRA ACETATE....u need Vinyls(obviously make a testpress with matrix to print fake)...u must create vinyl covers,lyrics sheet,label on vinyl....that request more time,money,energy,work, than a shakira acetate....
take a look at this...and attention of COUNTRY press:

http://www.metallipromo.com/images/kill/025.html

Why always Hector's site?...simple ,cause they are the greatest collector's community on www and Met have the largest discography(recently friends of this forum have send me a Warner video promo for Met last album,where the second thing said in this advertisment is "the band of largest discography after the beatles"...and the community family is very proud of this fact!)..
talk with these guy is always a pleasure...there's something to learn(as for soundgarden and aic community...with these last guys i've talked about acetate from southamerica...some of these guys know.......amadeur)..

but come back to this item:

http://www.metallipromo.com/images/kill/025.html

the guys from met-forum say that these braz guys are very fantastic...naturally they have created a testpress with his matrix...a cover..made a vinyl cover..lyrics insert....and they are so fantastic cause for label they have chosen Megaforce..i know it means nothing to u...but megaforce is first company of Met....most researched items are come from megaforce....
stop?nooo...cause these braz guys are really super...they are never tired and decide to include(with new material,money,time,work) an...........exclusive poster!!!!!!!!!!!!!
which is the goal in this situation???????goal is that Jari(the guy has bought this item) has paid $3500 for this vinyl...when his value,to use a traditonal phrase of a member of our forum....is just 2cents!!!!!!!!!!and believe me...it request more work than a shakira acetate...
an italian friend of met forum said days ago that...sometime they must buy 2copy of a vinyl to remove label and check number printed under it....he said "dave,in some case it's the only way to check if an item is official...we must spend money only to damage a vinyl!!!!!!!""
always a pleasure learn something..

so in the end...last word about Jeremy arg promo...
before i give my money...in that case...i decided to ask your help..and u Sam...start to investigate like a mad...it's so nice...

what does it mean?it's just a sign of respect of your experience,opinion...cause i need always to learned in this world....
jeremy..remained unsold!!!!
maybe in future we'll see that it's an official promo....

Ed can come to my door and "dave,it is an ultra mega,maxi,ultra, rare promo and u have lost it!!"

-"well,i have missed a lot of items in my collection....but in my community...i've found a lot friends"


sorry for this long post...thx to read it and for the patience to read it...
thx again to Vic and Nor to have suggested me to share this experience...brake these sort of chains..i don't think i 'll return to spoke on this seller or this types of these items...maybe it's better come back in my silence
i still don't like this whole situation,still continues give me bad feelings and vibrations..

Sorry....sorry....sorry again
D.

[VicSpeed]

my opinion: you dont have to say sorry again. you have some doubts and you open a new thread about it,.

personally I dont want to list items in our site if these are unofficial, because this means these will become harder to find and of course more expensive. and some "pirate" will get our money. that's sad.

i think we can talk about it without bad feelings. we are a collectors community, and everybody can express about it. so please no more sorrys!

i think we must investigate to try to find the truth...

Simo and Sam: I asked Dave to open the new thread 'cos I think you paid your latest Gorge promo some weeks ago and you will be protected by PayPal if you decide to reclaim. PLEASE! i'm not saying these brazilian items are false. honestly I DON't KNOW!

finally i want to say a public THANK YOU to Dave, he was very very worried because he thought you will be angry against him for saying he think these brazs are fakes. I think it's a good way to know more about our collections.

[Megadave]

uuuhh i come back.....

i've read again my last thread...full of mistakes...sorry for my english,i make some corrections...but it's not only my english so poor....my italian too...

i'll find Simo post...thx so much 4your opinion and your words...i've read your story about gorge cd with scratch....................read my new thread,read story about first day amadeur try to sell me gorge....compare the 2 stories....
u can say without doubt than Amadeur is a serious seller as Ben from Tokyomusic???(we all know Ben here...we all know that Ben is specialized in PROMO!!!Amadeur is like...BEN?Amadeur attitude is the same of Ben????i'm not talk about fake or unofficial....i'm talking about attitude with buyers that give u money to eat!!!!)
and i have said to Vic to ....DON'T DELETE these items from pjcoll,Vic can confirm...there's absolutely no problem....this isn't the problem....there only 2 problems: seller's attitude and my.....alcool's dependancy...(uuhhh...Ed drinks so much red wine!!! )

and to close...for the last lot(6 or seven 7items...i don't remember,i've deleted all his mails..i have sent a couple of pics to V&N) he asked me....$3000!!!!!!!!!i think he 'll show them to u in future...if i don't give him an answer,i think for august, i will be the first to receive braz acetate of Freak and Reeenk!!!!
and am i the bastard guy?the ugly,bad ,insane drunk italian liar buyer??????
but i can't say italian,cause in this forum there are very nice italian guys...so the bastard ,liar buyer who lives in south of italy....but i can't say south of italy cause there's Filippo in this forum...so the bastard,liar ,dic**head,drunk, italian buyer than live in Bari???.........ooohh,it's the best way to describe me...


so i have written to V&N try to explain my whole situation...
come back to drink....it's the only human ability that God gives me....

stop....stop...stop....

Sorry again........
Grazie Simo di nuovo x la tua opinione,spero ke tu...non ke comprenda...ma ke sia stato io in grado di spiegare le mie intenzioni (è diverso dire ad 1 persona "hai capito?"..dal "sono stato capace di spiegarmi?"...)e il mio piccolissimo stato d animo,sono piccole cose...non è la vita o la morte c mancherebbe,ma quello ke xme era 1fetta,1trancio d spensieratezza nella mia giornata(questo forum)ne è diventata una fonte d tensione...

Take care

[norman-grunge]

Here is my point of view after reading all your messages.

Of course it's not easy to say if a CD-R promo is real or fake. But with the US CD-R promos we have found a good way to identify the authenticity (number on the inner ring and brand of the CD-R). This way doesn't work with the Brazilian promos anymore. I have to say that I had a bad feeling about these promos when they first popped up on ebay. Even the price was very high. They are easily to create. Take a CD-R and print a sticker. I think it's no big deal to get a font which looks like the one from the US promos. To include the logo is easy too. That they come in white papersleeves is poor too. I have never seen any promos which come in cheap white papersleeves without any printing on it about the artist or content.

I have bought 3 promos from the seller raritiesbrazil with a BIN for US$ 80 each. The seller offered them for US$ 300 weeks and days ago but no one bought them. So I thought it would be cheap to get them for US$ 80 now. I couldn't resist. I have also checked his profile and other items he was selling which seemed to be all official. But most of them were "right" promos with a silver CD and pressing with insert.

I can't really decide if there are real or fake. Some points speak for the authenticity and some not. Point 4 of Simo's mesage are good too. But if they are fakes (when we can find out it) we should remove the items. The best would be to contact a guy of Sony BMG Brazil. Don't know how this can work.

[simopearl]

i tried a couple of days a go to contact the Sony/BMG Brazil... i asked them some info but i doubt they will answer me...
I know another Brazilian guy, i will try to ask him either!!

[bu$hleaguer]

Thanks Simo. There are a few Brazilian sellers I can ask as well. I wouldn't expect a response from Sony, but anything is possible. I wonder if anyone at the 10C would be helpful? Didn't I read that they would assist fans in authenticating autographs? Maybe if we explained our situation they would connect us to some one in the proper channels...

[massimo]

Thanks Simo. There are a few Brazilian sellers I can ask as well. I wouldn't expect a response from Sony, but anything is possible. I wonder if anyone at the 10C would be helpful? Didn't I read that they would assist fans in authenticating autographs? Maybe if we explained our situation they would connect us to some one in the proper channels...

I asked a couple of years ago if they (10C) have a system authentication for the autographs bue they told "No, we are sorry". As you told I don't think that someone in Sony would explain that and I belive that the promo release are another channel that isn't trusted with the band managment.

[simopearl]

i had my brasil contact answer:

"I´ve never seem those items from Pearl Jam... But I got some acetates like this from other artists as MIKE OLDFIELD. I have a double editions of Mike Oldfield … They look like unofficial copy but I got it from a security person.

I do believe that Sony could really make those items!"

so i asked him why he thought the were unofficials and he answered me:

"Because it´s not well done.
It´s not like other kinds of promos i´ve seem they are a little bit different."

In my opinion this is not a very reliable opinion... My copies of the Braz promos are really well done and they don't seem to be unofficial (looking at them. different is the fact the seller has a lot of them).
Anyhow it seems that in this period there are a lot of brazil acetates in brasil.. maybe something has changed???

Let's try to have some further info

[bu$hleaguer]

Interesting info, Simo. I believe that if we can find enough "Sony" acetates from multiple sources we can be comfortable that these are legit. I get what your contact is saying about how these promos are not well done. These certainly look "unofficial" since anyone could easily duplicate one in about 5 minutes. BUT... that doesn't mean they are fake.

[pdalowsky]

Wow, fantastic discussion here, I've missed it all....one week away and look what can be missed

I've been in discussions with Dave and Sam for some time about these also, and sadly its clear that unless Sony answer we'll never know.

I have been in touch with the chap also re buying the Gorge Set, and he told me to act quicky as he only was able to find a very last copy through his contact ay Brazil Warner, for 950 dollars it was mine. To me that was insane, one of most regular guys on here sold me the EU promo in the slipcase for a lot less and thats one super item.

Now I see he seems to be able to get as many as he can sell, yet not one goes on ebay. I have my opinion, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

As for the why would anyone go to the lengths to make the gorge thing fade in and out for radio play? at 950 bucks a pop I can see good reason. Plus do radio edits actually ever fade out on the actual CD anymore? dont the DJ's do that through their equipment?? (I'll have to check how the selections from Gorge that Rhino put out sounds and see if that fades to be sure on this point though)..

still great discussion and some interesting points, for me the reply to Dave speaks volumes.....

[VicSpeed]

hey if you all want, I can move this thread to the open forum so we can hear some others opinions.

let me know.

[norman-grunge]

I have no problem with that.